Thanks for making the time to talk; you're the man of the moment.
Ha, yes.
Congratulations on all of the nominations. How does that feel? You're in a unique position.
Well, it just feels crazy. It's been a surreal couple of days, but it's really amazing.
I know that you and your friend, 'Amin', have known each other for 25 years. How much did you know of his story going in? And how did you broach the subject making the film with him?
I almost knew nothing when we started. You know, I met him when I was 15, and I was, of course, curious about how I grew up in this very small Danish village, and he arrives one day, all by himself from Afghanistan, and I was, of course, curious about how and why he came, but he didn't want to talk about it. I, of course, respected that. So it's really not until what you see in the film, when he starts to open up that I hear the same thing. What you hear in the film, what you see in the film is the first time he started sharing his stories.
I'm conscious that we're on a Zoom call for 15 minutes, and this experience is very different to the space you set up for your interviews.
Very.
How did you conceive of the interview environment? What was the rationale behind the physical way you conducted your conversations.
In the beginning, it was super important for me that he felt comfortable and safe sharing his story. So our agreement was actually that for the first year, bit more, that we just kind of tried it out that he would start sharing a story and then we would see if it felt okay, if it felt right.
So it took it took a year or so where we just kind of tried it out and he started sharing stories. And then of course, we started to get a little bit of funding for the film, and looked each other in the eyes and said, 'OK, is this working?' And he felt like it was the right way and time to tell his story. Then I used this technique of interviewing while he's laying down, and he has his eyes closed and talks present tense. It's a technique of interviewing that looks like therapy, only it's not. I have a background in radio and it's a technique I learnt when I started doing radio because in radio, you don't have an image, so you need your subject to be really descriptive in the way of talking. And by having him lay down and speak in present tense, it's about creating presence in his voice. So when we start to talk about it a certain memory, I would start out asking him about the location to ask him to describe the location in detail. And this would give us a lot of information that the animators could work from. But it would also bring him back to the specific situation, and his way of talking would become a little different. And he would kind of relive these memories and start to remember things you're otherwise forgotten, instead of just retelling what happened. It's really [about] trying to be as intimate and precise as possible.
It's a technique of interviewing that looks like therapy, only it's not
With animation, obviously, you have the base of the truth in his testimony, but then how did you approach the animation and what style you chose? Did you feel tethered to reality for certain aspects, and where was your lifting off point to be more creative?
It's really about finding a of that could support the testimony that was given to me. I mean, it was so important for us to kind of keep this sense of authenticity in the style of animation. So it was a long time of, you know, just gathering references from other animated films, from photographers, from painters, from live-action films as well, and slowly kind of gathering material where we felt 'Okay. this this can represent this story'. And then it was about, you know, listening to the voice and making sure that that it connected to the animation. And you can tell we have different kinds of animation in the film. There is like this kind of 2D animation, the hand-drawn animation that kind of shows things like they were. We tried to really be precise on showing, you know, Afghanistan in the '80s looked like, and Moscow in the '90s, could look like. But then at times when we start to talk about his traumas and things, he has a hard time remembering, then the animation turns more kind of expressive and surreal. And that really came from the voice because, you know, when he started to talk about these things, he became more incoherent. He would slow down. Sometimes he would even stop. And I thought, 'OK, but this now is not about what things look like anymore. Now it's about an emotion he has inside.' And I thought, OK, well, we need to show this individual state as well as we have this more kind of this very graphical surreal to kind of support his emotions of of being afraid, of being sad or be angry.
What stands out is the fact that this is a person who has been a refugee and we follow his story beyond that process. Many stories linger on that time, the worst time of the refugees' lives. I'd love to talk about your intention to follow his story through to the present day. And in doing so, how did you know when you had an ending?
Yeah, it's always difficult when you when you work in documentary because, you know, you work with real people because, you know, it's a work in progress, it doesn't really necessarily 'end' so often, you know, is a decision. And here it felt like I've spent, I think, four or five years doing interviews with him. I've done, I think, around 22 interviews with him during that span and where we kind of went even deeper into his memories. And at some point that felt like OK, but we've been through everything. But at the same time, you know, I also followed him and his boyfriend in their life in the present day and quite early in the process. I thought, OK, but this is a story about a home.
You know, sometimes when you do documentaries, you just have lucky accidents. And and when I started following them, they started looking for a house. And I thought, 'OK, but I'm going to follow this process and see where it takes them'. And either, you know, it's going to be a happy end: they're going to find the house and move in together; or it's going to be a tragedy and they're going to split up. And I mean, this guy continued fleeing. But it's, you know, in the end, it was the decision about, OK, now I think we have to stop filming because otherwise, you know, I could still be filming and we would never make a film.
It's a nice house.
It's a beautiful house.
So it's called 'Flee'. He acknowledges his tendency to flee. Were there any moments during the the filming where you thought he might bail on the project?
I was concerned at times, but you know, it was always my concern. He was, I think he had carried the story around for so many years. So when he finally made the decision to share it, I think was like, this, this is it, I'm not going to change my mind. He was very generous and he really trusted me to do this in a way where he felt represented. So it was only my concern. Sometimes that concerns. But yeah, he was always like, No, but let's let's keep going.
We mentioned this odd time for you, in the spotlight. Of course, he can't participate in all of the attention, with good reason. But what's it like to be having this global conversation about it?
Yeah, no. I would love to have him here by my side, but that's just how it is. And I, of course, keep him posted with everything that goes on with the film, and he's really happy to see how it kind of reaches an audience out there. Also, because, you know, growing up, he didn't feel like he had a lot of stories that he could relate to in the media. So to be able to give his story and to give a new one's portrait of, you know, the refugee experience for all the people who have similar experiences is really important to him.
And when did he see it?? Was he across edits with you or did you finally sitting him down to watch it, completed?
Oh, he was, he was a part of a puzzle. He, you know, we got all the transcribed, and I would then guess, you know, this story takes place during more than 30 years. So it was really about choosing a path through it. I would take the sequences I thought would be in the film and put it into a document. And then he would read through it and then would have become a conversation about, OK, but does this feel like your story? And he would come on things you've had misunderstood things or if things were factually wrong or if I had left out things before, it was really crucial to understand this story. I would do the same thing with the edit and I would also, you know, pass the science by him just to make sure that he was OK with how we kind of made him look and how we made his home look and everything. And also, at times, you know, he would kind of just like draw outlines of what his house looked like and what is setting in Moscow. Look back. Just so we had a reference for what things actually look like. We tried to be as close to reality as possible.
I know you're still invested in this film, I'm sure you will be the life, but. What I'd love to know what is next for you? What are the kind of stories that tell you that you wanted to tell?
…Do you have another friend with an incredible life story that you can document?!
I think I'm going to leave my friends alone for a little bit! But no, I don't. I have a couple of ideas, but you know, everything going on right now. It's a little distracting, so I don't really have time to sit down and really investigate new ideas at this moment. But I hope that sometime next spring that I'll be able to do a dive and find new projects.
Will you get to go to the Oscars?
Well, we definitely plan to. Yeah, and hopefully we're going to be able to bring the team finally, because we know this film has been out in the middle of a pandemic and we haven't really been able to celebrate with all the accolades it's been given. We haven't been able to celebrate. So hopefully I'm going to be able to bring a team and we can we can have a fun time on the biggest stage in the world.
Absolutely. And look, all the congratulations to you, and to your friend, it's such a wonderful film and a beautiful story with happy ending. We need more of those in the world right now.
Indeed. Thank you so much. Thanks again. Bye.
Flee is in limited release in cinemas now, and is nominated for Best Feature Documentary, Best International Film, and Best Animated Feature at the 93rd Academy Awards, to be held on 28 March (29 March in Australia).
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